![[hand]](/hs-pics/portraits/hands/gillan4.jpg)
![[face]](/hs-pics/portraits/faces/paice.jpg)
The tall skinny kid
More of the Derek Lawrence recollections of the days gone by. Some of it overlaps with what you may have seen on these pages previously, but it never hurts to do it again.
Thanks to Ritchie Blackmore Official channel for posting these.
Unauthorized copying, while sometimes necessary, is never as good as the real thing
Derek was not a bass guitarist admirer it seems. OUCH! Someone here ain’t going to be happy. And it isn’t just a Deep Purple issue either, what about Martin Turner from Wishbone Ash? Derek was still very old fashioned with his views on the past. Not to worry, each to their own. RIP. Thanks for the videos. Cheers.
June 29th, 2025 at 11:51Thanks for your sympathy, Herr MacGregor, but whatever his personal views, Derek‘s support for prominent bassist band members such as Tony Wilson of Hot Chocolate and Martin Turner of Wishbone Ash (I just saw him a little while ago – still great and excellent band, much more spirited than Andy Powell‘s Wishbone Ash) under his wings lets me forgive him, triggering my magnanimous instincts! 🤗
Add to that how the more recent Mk I discussions on these hallowed pages had me listen to the “April”/3rd album yesterday full blast in my Volvo (the motorcycle is getting new brake pads) where I generally only listen to new music I have acquired with the realization setting in that Nick’s bass on it can certainly be heard better than Roger’s on In Rock (and that his playing is also more confident and lively) and that really, if you ignore the cultural significance and forging of a new sound that In Rock no doubt achieved, then April is in pure audio terms the better and more mature production compared to the sizzling overdrive + distortion fest that is In Rock (and sometimes makes it painful to listen to for my ears).
In 1969/70, Roger was certainly conceptually the more modern-thinking bass player in the way he was prepared to lock in with Paicey’s drums (Nick’s playing was more free form over what Paicey did), but it really took him until Machine Head and the advent of the Rickenbacker 4001 to find his sound and establish a more assertive role in the band. (But when he did, it was of course iconic!)
I find that Derek makes interesting observations. When he says that the Mk I albums were more about individual rock pop songs while In Rock was just a (mind you: newly forged, exciting + well-played) “sound” and “riffs”, I know what he means and tend to agree. I’ve written before (and not earned much agreement here) that In Rock is to me an iconic statement of a new sound, but not a songwriting masterclass and that DP Mk II aren’t exactly The Beatles when it comes to writing a singalong chorus, it’s mostly a catchy riff by Ritchie with Big Ian adding a few notes in words to it. Derek is right, when people are asked to sing SOTW, they don’t holler “smooooooke on the waaaater” they sing the riff “dun-dun-duh …”. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule with some creatures simply not getting the memo … 😆
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/O-M4yXZN2g4
I also found his take that DP is Ritchie and Little Ian as the main musical drivers of the band with Jon bringing it all together as a negotiator and interpreter noteworthy. Or his summation of Ritchie as someone unable to copy anyone well (unusual for a session player like Ritchie undoubtely initially was), but equipped with a unique own style.
All that said, Derek, even though only a year older than Jon Lord, was from another generation and mindset than the Purple guys and they rightly felt that Martin Birch (seven years younger than Derek) was the man for their vision. Interestingly, Wishbone Ash ditched him too as a producer after only three albums (including their most successful one – the iconic ARGUS>/i>); they returned to him in the late 70s for No Smoke Without Fire but the latter one wasn’t reignited with that particular production). As a sonic production work, Argus is I think as good as Derek Lawrence ever got, the atmosphere on that record is almost otherworldly.
The fact that it was (presumably guilt-ridden because of having ditched Derek) Ritchie who brought fledgling Wishbone Ash and Derek Lawrence together following an Mk II gig where during the soundcheck a cocky Andy Powell on his Flying V aped Ritchie’s licks and runs while the dark maestro was soundchecking his gear too, has been told before on these pages. Derek then asked for their demo, liked what he heard and flew straight to the US to negotiate a recording contract with MCA for WA.
June 29th, 2025 at 14:17Derek raised a good point about Deep Purple becoming more of a riff band than a song band on “In Rock.” Great album, but other than “Child In Time” the average person doesn’t remember a single song off that album (us rock heads do, but not the average person). But the late 1960s/early ’70s were about riffs more than anything else, so it was a natural progression for Purple – and a very wise one. And who is to say that melody always trumps good riff rock? That may’ve been Derek Lawrence’s preference, but I think most people who like 1970s rock prefer a variety between melody/rock, or a combination. Purple got back to the melody with songs like “Fools” and brilliantly constructed tunes such as “Pictures of Home,” “Mistreated,” “Woman from Tokyo,” and “Solider of Fortune.” One thing that surprised many people was how someone like Ritchie Blackmore who was so hellbent on the dominance of riffs in the early 1970s just seven years later sacked Ronnie James Dio in Rainbow and went to a much softer pop/rock sound with Graham Bonnet by 1978 and Joe Lynn Turner a couple years later. It demonstrated that Ritchie wanted to remain mainstream in terms of drawing listeners and staying relevant more than being married to hard riff-driven rock. Some viewed that as “selling out,” but Ritchie’s attitude was that he was all about melody. One might ask where that commitment to melody was on “In Rock,” but one has to remember that Purple were at a crossroads heading into the 1970s, with psychedelic rock giving way to riff rock. Purple may not have survived if it had stayed with psych/pop rock. So, survival and relevance certainly were a justifiable reason to go the “heavy metal” route at that point. I think Ritchie also felt relevance and survivability justified switching from the dungeons & dragons high-grade hard rock of the early (Dio) Rainbow era to the more AOR-friendly rock/pop sound from 1978-1983. That, and knowing it was highly unlikely he would be able to find anyone who could belt out the hard rock as good as Dio probably contributed to Blackmore’s decision to go in the lighter-rock direction, as well. Dio can be seen in video interviews from that era whining about the fact that Ritchie’s face was more prominently placed on some of the early Rainbow albums than his. Dio also complained about the legendary Side 2 of the “Rising” album being too riff-oriented and showcasing Ritchie’s virtuoso solos rather than including much of Dio’s vocals. To me, that reflected a great deal of jealousy and ego on Dio’s part, especially to express that publicly. I think Ritchie was justified in firing Dio at that point. But perhaps he should’ve allowed Dio to have his ego tantrums and carried on, given that Dio was one of the greatest singers in rock history. But they were all still young men, as was Ian Gillan, and not many are mature and able to surpress egos for the greater good at a young age like that.
June 29th, 2025 at 14:18James, we’re in agreement, great minds thinketh alike, Enlightened One!
Purple were never really a chorus-happy band (not like for instance Uriah Heep were), Ian doesn’t really write that way and Ritchie indeed discovered that part in his songwriting desire relatively late. I’m not even sure whether it was only out of commercialism and not also because he had grown tired of what a German magazine once called Ritchies Dampframmenstil, i.e. having a dominant riff as the heart of the song with the lead vocalist adding a few words to (or shortly before) it to make it a (part of the) chorus. By the 80s, he was also running out of stellar riffs, in my ears KAYBD is his last truly majestic one, others may disagree.
I also think that Ritchie’s departure from DP had a whole lot to do with the fact that he could not tell Big Ian what to sing because the latter wouldn’t have it. If you listened to some of the Candice interviews more recently, the vocal melodies she sings with BN are all Ritchie’s, she just puts words to them. Which might explain why a lot of BN vocal melodies sound so incredibly run of the mill pedestrian – Ritchie is (was) a more ingenious riffmeister than he is a writer of vocal melodies. That he considers Steet Of Dreams one of his best songs says it all – I find the vocal melodies in that hugely contrived and written at the drawing board hellbent for commercial success. Dieter Bohlen (of Modern Talking notoriety) comes to mind.
June 29th, 2025 at 15:34Good points James and Uwe. Regarding Blackmore not being a obvious singing melody type of writer, yes that is also obvious with the other ‘riffmeisters’ too. Page and Iommi, that is why they had to work with good singing melodic vocalists. Cue Robert Fripp too and no doubt a few other guitar blazers from that era. Ritchie always had his eye on songs as we know, from his experience in the session era of the 60’s. I always remember that comment he made that Pete Townshend told him, ‘keep it simple and as long as the postman can whistle it’. He and other guitarists including bassists, became obsessed with the riff based rock music. Hendrix could be blamed for that, also Cream and a few others. The six string electric guitar during the 1960’s was revered in all formats, compared to other instruments, hence Derek’s bass put down. Aside from quality vocals, the other instruments in rock music were always playing catchup during the 60’s. They eventually caught up thankfully, thanks to Entwistle, Bruce, Lord and Emerson and the various drummers too. Hence my ‘old fashioned’ comment regarding Derek, I didn’t mean that in a bad way, just his era and his experiences. I just purchased Pilgrimage on cd a few weeks back, nice and those first four English produced Wishbone Ash albums are classics indeed. Although my favourite is the fifth album, There’s The Rub. Good songs are the key to everlasting melodies. I knew what Derek meant and it was good he stated that. However those good songs did keep on coming into the 1970s big time. Cheers.
June 29th, 2025 at 22:04@2 – Uwe, how lucky you are to have seen Martin Turner live recently! He only plays he UK and Germany at this point.
Wish he would at least make another record. Ten years since “Written in the Stars”.
June 29th, 2025 at 23:58The thing that surprised me in that Lawrence interview was not how unimportant he considered bass players, but how little credit he gave to Jon Lord. Whose classical influences and tuneful, exciting solos were a HUGE part of the MKI sound.
And who – unlike Ritchie – already had a natural facility for writing conventional “song”-type songs such as Lawrence preferred. (eg.,”One More Rainy Day”, “Anthem”, “Blind”.) Rather strange.
Another odd thing is that if Lawrence considered Blackmore’s guitar the most important element of Purple’s sound, he nonetheless let it take a back seat to Lord’s keyboard on the first LP. And didn’t start bringing it to the forefront until some of “The Book of Taliesyn” numbers.
Fully agree with Mr. Lawrence, Uwe and James that “In Rock” was about sound, not songs. While the MKI lineup used many of the colours on the palette, and Lawrence gave each member an approximately equal share of the sonic real estate…
“In Rock” saw them focusing on just one of the earlier’s lineup’s “shades”: the “Mandrake Root”-type riffs, to the exclusion of most of the prog, psych and pop elements. With guitar now much more prominent in the mix. And Lord’s contribution restricted to Hammond-through-a-Marshall, no more piano, harpsichord, mellotron or string arrangements.
No doubt, Martin Birch was a big factor in MKII’s recorded sound. Their first single, “Hallelujah”, though self-produced, sounds like a MKI record with Gillan singing. Conversely, “Hush” from MKI’s final BBC session – recorded a few weeks later – sounds more like MKII with Evans singing. It took Birch to achieve the overloaded-sounding mix of “In Rock”.
Could never figure out whether Blackmore’s main priority was melody or money. Maybe both, at various times over the years?
Had each MKI LP sold MORE than the preceding one, rather than less, might he have ridden that train as long as it lasted? Led Zeppelin’s harder sound, and male singer wailing in a Janis Joplin range, was causing a sensation… At the very moment MKI’s career was beginnning to tank… A little implausible to think commerce, as well as the stated artistic reasons, didn’t contribute Blackmore’s desire for change.
He genuinely seems to have left MKIII for musical reasons, i.e. his dislike for some of the funky material. During the Rainbow years, he also mentioned some Purple people’s lack of enthusiasm for his favorite tune, “Soldier Of Fortune” as a factor.
When Dio’s exit from Rainbow coincided with slicker, Foreigner-type AOR becoming the dominant style in the rock music marketplace… It never occurred to me that it was down to anything other than Blackmore’s desire to chase the currently-profitable trend. Might the souring relationship between the guitarist and singer also have contributed, as James suggests? Interesting to think about!
June 30th, 2025 at 00:30@ 2 – I forgot about this in my reply earlier. The better recording with MKI and the third album. Yes, that old chestnut again, easier to record and sound nicer when there isn’t any heavy distorted guitar, let alone full on lead vocal too. In Rock as we know suffers from that ‘sound’ it has, for more reasons than one. Fireball sounded better, the Stratocaster and a more settled approach to things no doubt. With In Rock there is fair bit of ‘naivety’ for want of a better description. They were young and out to prove a point, and be damned if anyone was to try and get in their way. As we know that is its charm, so to speak. They had to start somewhere and the frustration of Jon Lord’s Concerto needed to be banished, if I should use that word. A couple of them were annoyed weren’t they, the two critical ‘x factors’, Blackmore and Gillan. Anyway, it is all good early DP, in many ways most peoples favourite. Listen to Sabbath’s debut and Heep’s too, all 1970. Plenty of youthful vigour on all those albums and a rough and raw sort of sound. Very ‘Eavy, Very ‘Umble indeed. Cheers.
June 30th, 2025 at 07:12RITCHIE IS FICKLE
Blackmore tires quickly of people, he kicked out Nick because he found his bass playing approach old-fashioned and drove Roger out of the band four years later for being too docile on bass and not rhythmically orientated enough which is why he welcomed Glenn as a syncopation-happy Andy Fraser-clone. Two years later Glenn was too funky for him as if that came as a surprise from someone coming from Trapeze (whom Blackmore had witnessed live several times, so he knew exactly what he was in for, I can’t stand that “Glenn snuck funk into DP”-myth generally spread by people who have never sat down and heard a Trapeze album front to back!).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUBCNuRnbk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01F9KfbTUY4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svqr_1HEKIY
In the long run, you can never please Ritchie unless your name is Candice.
With Dio, I’m sure Dio’s “little man jealousy” played a role, but don’t forget that Blackmore doesn’t like inability – and Dio’s voice when it went high up just didn’t sound like Lou Gramm, Sammy Hagar, Paul Stanley or Steve Perry, it lost power. Ritchie wanted someone who could belt that tenor/falsetto tone out over the radio and he got him with Graham Bonnet. Realistically, Dio could have never sung either SYBG or I Surrender (with which even JLT battled as it was first recorded with GB and consequently a bit too high for Joe) in the keys they were recorded. Dio’s upper range isn’t gritty, simple as that, which is why Ritchie referred to it scoffingly in Bonnet-era days as that little girlie voice of his. Not nice, I know. But being played in the US charts in the 80s meant you needed a helium voiced singer that could even then still project force.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcj34XixuYg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yDmeYxTeC0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvV3nn_de2k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atxUuldUcfI
And while AOR music like that met and continues to meet a lot of critical derision, let me tell you: It’s not easy to sing as a guy that high with that kind of force. And no other music requires it as much as AOR with its anthemic chorus melodies. Dio certainly couldn’t do it, but he had other strengths, unfortunately ones for which Ritchie lost interest after a while.
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IN ROCK & ALL THAT NOISE
For all its sonic flaws and idiosyncrasies, In Rock is likely the most epochal garage sound album ever. Bands like the MC5 or Iggy & The Stooges would have killed had they ever achieved a studio sound as raw and abrasive as DP did on In Rock. They never did. In a way, In Rock is as immediate and in your face as The Sex Pistols’ Never Mind The Bollocks. It’s no coincidence that Joey Ramone (born 1951) said that he loved In Rock but despised what DP became later on (“saturated and bloated”). In Rock had street credibility and opened the door into the 70s.
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LONGEVITY FOR MK I & WHY IT’S IMPORTANT THAT MEN LOOK GOOD
Had each MKI LP sold MORE than the preceding one, rather than less, might he have ridden that train as long as it lasted?
I doubt it, Herr MacGregor, Mk I had the best-used-before-date clearly inscribed. Psychedelia was on the way out as were semi-acoustic guitars (an issue with increasing stage volumes) and frilly shirts + bouffant hairdos. And there was one other major aspect: DP needed a male sex symbol as a singer and Rod Evans (though handsome in a passe MOR crooner sense) was no Robert Plant, Roger Daltrey, Mick Jagger or Rod Stewart. I know that it is anathema on these pages that anybody might have gotten a job with DP based also on his looks, but young Ian Gillan was strikingly handsome in an early 70s fashionable, androgynous way, a perfect canvas for teenage projections.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRaNN29XIo3fDaOZi_JtveKmssfRT6NEwqvqYdSIMqGZK24LSYqdFpj44Fw-o8O0rAe3kY&usqp=CAU
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5a/85/6d/5a856d61a3f5babb2a958b61a7f2bfc5.jpg
Just ask Karin as one of our youngest members here, she’ll confirm.
Rod Evans OTOH shared the same fate as Keith Relf of The Yardbirds – another singer that wasn’t made of the stuff teenage dreams are made of.
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WISHBONE ASH & EVEN MORE BEAUTIFUL MEN
I understand how you like There’s The Rub, Herr MacGregor, Ted Turner had incredible feel as a lead guitarist on those first four studio albums, but in terms of versatility he was no Laurie Wisefield – the best lead guitarist WA ever had. Also the prettiest one (look, I don’t blame you, living on an island …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqV-S6SDQUQ
puts strain on any man & all that …), Martin Turner cracks jokes about Laurie getting all the girls to this day …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ56y1QsobU
Why no one abducted Sweet Lil’ Laurie (Martin Turner) from WA and tried to turn him into another Peter Frampton is beyond me. It would have worked.
Skippy, I’m an avid WA-gig-goer, I saw them in their heyday twice with Martin Turner/Laurie Wisefield and since then the Andy Powell version of the band at least half a dozen and the Martin Turner version even more often (Andy’s WA is a bit too corporate for me).
When it comes to beautiful, yet interesting twin lead guitar harmony lines, WA is unbeatable even by bands such as Thin Lizzy, Allman Brothers, Molly Hatchet, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Boston, Grateful Dead, Television, Judas Priest and/or Iron Maiden. They all sound pedestrian or conventional in comparison.
Written In The Stars was a good album by Martin & his men, I’d sure like to hear another one too, Skippy.
June 30th, 2025 at 18:32It seems like Uwe has just recently discovered the capital (upper case), bold and highlighted tab on his keyboard, he he he. Let’s make a statement and some. Good to see there is still some ‘luddite’ in many of us. Cheers
June 30th, 2025 at 22:14I know which band I would be going to concerts of, the Martin Turner one. A shame that these iconic bands split up and have their personal and or musical differences. Life eh? Picking up Pilgrimage recently on cd completes my Wishbone Ash cd collection. The Wishbone Four album was a dud, then bingo, There’s The Rub, what an album that is. So four albums from the early 70’s it is or me. I never took to their later albums, I did own couple of their later 70’s ones, but couldn’t get into them. I have tried listening to other later albums online, but to no avail. Having another attempt at listening to the album ‘No Smoke without Fire’. That commercial straight ahead aspect to their later music let them down, but everyone has to try something different, don’t they? Cheers.
June 30th, 2025 at 22:40No Smoke Without Fire was actually an attempt of theirs to return to their early 70s sound, hence the reemergence of Derek Lawrence in the producer stool, but it didn’t work out as hoped.
June 30th, 2025 at 23:22@11 MacGregor – agree, Wishbone Ash without Martin Turner is pretty thin gruel. And that “There’s the Rub” is an outstanding record.
The follow up, “Locked In” was pretty weak… But the one after that, “New England”, was a return to form – if you haven’t checked it out, you may be pleasantly surprised. Most of the songs have strong melodies. The guitar harmonies on “You Rescue Me” – wow! The closing instrumental dates from the Ted Turner era. And MT is in top form throughout with bass high in the mix, especially cool to hear on concert fave “Lorelei” and instrumental “Outward Bound”.
“No Smoke Without Fire” and “Just Testing” were both OK I thought. Better than any post-MT releases, at any rate. Some tunes, eg. the epic “Way of the World” sound a lot like classic WA. One downside, especially on “Testing”: Martin sounds like he’s trying to imitate Bowie at times.
@9 i) Uwe, no doubt all the dual lead guitar bands you listed did some excellent work. (Including the Grateful Dead who, strictly speaking, had only one lead guitarist.) The Allman Bros. may be my all-time favorites, for their improvisational ability. But for planned out harmony lines, agree that Wishbone Ash were the best in the business.
“Corporate” is a good word for Powell’s WA. You may already know that he is sole proprietor of the name, because in the 1980s WA’s manager told the band members that the business was heavily in debt and advised them to resign from the corporation. They all did except Powell. Which turned out to be a reasonably good business move for him over the long term.
He offered to sell the name to MT at one point, but named a price that Martin couldn’t afford.
ii) Didn’t know that Johnny Ramone was an “In Rock” fan.
But the LP’s incredibly monochromatic yet powerful sound always seemed like a precursor to later acts such as the Ramones and Motörhead. So it makes sense that they were listening.
July 1st, 2025 at 00:45Not Johnny, Joey the singer! The way those two disagreed on everything, Johnny (the guitarist) likely hated Deep Purple! 🤣
You forgot to mention Front Page News, Skippy, I love that album! It is often ignored, but in Germany Laurie Wisefield’s Goodbye Baby, Hello Friend was even a minor hit, you could find it on jukeboxes.
And yes, the David Bowie vocal influence on Martin Turner, Andy Powell didn’t like that at all … But getting rid of Martin was a death knell for WA.
July 1st, 2025 at 14:26@ 13- thanks Skippy, I will have a listen online to some of that Wishbone Ash. A shame that the band splintered and reading Martin’s 2014 take on what was going on is pitiful, from the other side that is. These things happen unfortunately, especially when the filthy lucre and dirty ego are involved. The established music always wins in the end, the enduring aspect to what was initially the reason for it all in the first place. Pretty nasty stuff in this post (Bankrupt For My Art) below, that Martin is talking about. It isn’t necessary reading though if anyone is only interested in their past music. Cheers.
https://www.martinturnermusic.com/blog
July 1st, 2025 at 23:41@9 Uwe, you must be listening to an alternative Dio then, because I have NEVER noticed his voice sounding thin when he sings high. Ronnie was well known for having a big range. Personally, I’ve always found Graham to be great in the studio but could be a bit shouty live. I’m glad Ronnie didn’t sing SYBG as it’s a fairly dreadful song .
July 2nd, 2025 at 16:33@14 – oops!
Johnny might have liked Purple too, he liked Led Zeppelin. Citing “Communication Breakdown” as a song that influenced his downstrokes-only technique. Plus, both he & Joey were Alice Cooper fans.
Johnny was also a huge Elvis fan, so obviously he had good taste.
“Front Page News” is a good record, but at least half of it is very mellow in a style different to the band’s previous folk-influenced ballads. Almost Eagles-ish at times, especially “Goodbye Baby…”.
Would say that “New England” has more of the classic WA sound… Betting that it might have more appeal for a fan such as MacGregor who tuned out after “There’s the Rub”. Which it resembles.
@15 – wow, Martin’s “Bankrupt for my Art” post was a depressing read. Without even mentioning how he was booted from the band twice prior to the aborted reunion attempt.
Too bad that “Garden Party” event didn’t turn into a new lineup with Martin & Ted Turner + Laurie Wisefield.
Guess it wasn’t in the cards, with Ted living in Arizona.
Even without the WA name – maybe they could have called the group WISHBONE TURNER WISEFIELD or something – they probably could have landed a lot of gigs and some kind of record deal.
July 2nd, 2025 at 16:50@ 17 – what I have listened to on New England has a rather commercial sound to it, those big chorus’s, a different take on a few songs there from what I am use to with the Ash. I will keep listening on, a few songs here and there. Regarding the demise of the Wishbone Ash band, I am not up on a lot of what happened. I try to avoid all that simply because of the Pink Floyd, Deep Purple and Yes dramas over the years, that have left me steering clear of any other bands going through that scenario. The Martin Turner blog I found yesterday was me purely seeking out whether he left the band (as I always thought he did) or he was pushed. Anyway, the music is all that matters in the end. Thankfully all these artists managed to get their best work completed in their earlier years, before the grumpy ‘grandpa’ mentality rises to the fore. It takes two to tango as the saying goes. Thanks for your information Skippy. Cheers.
July 2nd, 2025 at 22:49@9
“With Dio, I’m sure Dio’s “little man jealousy” played a role, but don’t forget that Blackmore doesn’t like inability – and Dio’s voice when it went high up just didn’t sound like Lou Gramm, Sammy Hagar, Paul Stanley or Steve Perry, it lost power.”
– what this guy says! (But Dio certainly lacked a lot compared to our Ian!)
“DP needed a male sex symbol as a singer” – indeed they needed that… and even more they needed a strong voice! (Ian had both things going for him imho) (or at least that’s what I’ve been reading in here 😇)
“young Ian Gillan was strikingly handsome in an early 70s fashionable, androgynous way, a perfect canvas for teenage projections.”
– normally I NEVER EVER argue with you Uwe! I never contradict you either! But this time I do need to reprimand you mildly!
Listen: Ian was not androgyny looking in any way. Take this statement from a woman who was a young girl when I saw him the first time.
Had he been androgynous in any way I wouldn’t have noticed him at all!
– just sayin’..
“Just ask Karin as one of our youngest members here, she’ll confirm.”
– well, just answered but didn’t quite confirm!
“Rod Evans OTOH shared the same fate as Keith Relf of The Yardbirds – another singer that wasn’t made of the stuff teenage dreams are made of.”
– before I hurt anyone’s feelings I have to stress the following is my opinion and no one needs to agree 😉
Rod Evans needed some humour! Take a look at this:
https://youtu.be/_4QBhC1uCP4?si=SES-gKyX2wIG-5Ms
And then imagine had it been Ian singing (or pretend to be singing ☺️)
July 4th, 2025 at 14:21Jon Lord was funny, so was Ian P, Ritchie was, well Ritchie, but he was a killer on the guitar so he could pull almost anything off regarding to be vexed, and Nick Simper was somewhat dear, but Rod, well, he was bashful and not in the cute way! Maybe if I had known more of Rod Evans I would look at him differently, but to me it seemed like he didn’t like to be in the spotlight.
(Ok Uwe, bring on the links and the cursive and prove me wrong 😑 😉)
Yes, Front Page News is very west-coasty and mellow, but I never minded the mounting American influence in WA’s sound, Skippy, after all come the mid 70s they spent most of their time there, it rubbed off.
Sigh, the Andy Powell/Martin Turner disenchantment saga! Whenever people lament here that not all ex- and current DP-members are not best of friends I always think to myself: You guys have no idea what true civil war scenarios in bands are. Anything that has happened with Purple is mild shit.
I’ve read both Andy’s and Martin’s respective autobiographies. The interesting thing is that they do not so much differ in the depiction and account of events but in the personal conclusions they drew for themselves watching them unfold.
To Martin, Andy is a no-frills hardass, cold businessman who has erected a family business around the brand Wishbone Ash of which he is hugely protective. That is a pretty accurate assessment if you ask me and even Andy probably wouldn’t say much against it other than I’m a grown man, an entrepreneur and sole provider for my family, life isn’t a joke and there is no free lunch.
To Andy, Martin is an irresponsible old hippie, lackadaisical in his outlook on life and not really dependent on making a living as a rock musician (and acting like it too). That isn’t too far from the truth either. Andy likely scoffs about Martin’s enviable or not so enviable position of having an affluent wife to fall back on. Martin is the type of guy who doesn’t need to be financially solid to be deemed marriage material. Andy’s experience in life otoh is that to achieve most anything means putting in hard work.
WA pretty much peaked with Argus, a “college dorm record success” and the subsequent Live Dates album. Then Ted Turner left for a decades-long self-improvement and therapy trip and with him went a part of that English Electric Folk influence WA always sported. Laurie Wisefield was the more experienced, talented and more versatile guitarist (also in comparison to Andy Powell who is a very good guitarist but no Laurie Wisefield), By the end of the 70s it was clear that WA would not repeat an Argus type success and remain in the B league of bands forever – or even less. Discontent began to set in, like dry rot, Martin’s more art rock’ish aspirations clashed with Andy’s We should try to sound more like we did on Argus, harmony guitars and harmony vocals. The idea was spawned that a non-instrumentalist new lead vocalist might widen WA’s appeal – Martin saw that, understandably so, wholly different, yet was overruled and asked to leave. And that is when WA’s final downward spiral began, from B league to Andy Powell Family-run cottage industry.
Andy’s WA isn’t horrible, it is expertly executed in the twin guitar sound and Bob Skeat is a fine bassist, if not as idiosyncratic as Martin (but Andy is on record for saying that he prefers WA with a more solid bass sound like Wetton, Bolder and Skeat provided (I naturally disagree). The vocals are … passable. Andy’s lead vocals are better than they used to be, but his natural voice was never as good as Ted Turner’s (who inter alia sang Jailbait), Martin Turner’s or Laurie Wisefield’s. Prior to his family takeover of WA, he only sang backing and harmony vocals with WA.
For many years it was the way around with Martin’s version of the band, the vocals were great, the guitar playing ok. But over die decades (and almost no line-up changes), the band has gelled so much, they are now even with Andy’s WA. And Martin has the more inspired drummer.
Commercially though, Andy’s WA sill holds the lead over Martin’s. Andy can fill small halls and large clubs in Germany, Martin has issues filling even small clubs and the promotion of those tours seems often haphazard to me while with Andy everything runs like clockwork (he has been touring Germany for decades every January and February now, always pretty much the same venues too). But Martin’s performances ooze charm and feel.
Andy feels that he is by now entitled to the brand Wishbone Ash – not just via stealth trademark registrations but because he kept the flag flying when no one else did:
– Laurie Wisefield left when he realized that WA were diminishing returns and that his skills as a guitarist could earn him more money on a session basis. He wasn’t wrong as his regular participations in Roger Chapman’s and Tina Turner’s backing bands or his appearances in the house band of Nokia Night of the Proms and in the long-running London Westend Queen musical (together with Neil Murray) showed. (He of course also played with Neil in Snakecharmer – alongside Micky Moody and later on Simon McBride.)
– Ted Turner plays music with his significant other, nice enough (and his lyrical guitar is immediately recognizable), but cottage industry too:
https://youtu.be/k5Wuse-HexM
– Steve Upton dropped the drum sticks in the 90s and never retrieved them, he became the director/caretaker of Miles Copeland’s (brother of Stewart Copeland and erstwhile manager of WA, Curved Air and Police) renowned winery estate in France where he lives today in a separate house on the estate as a retiree.
– After being forced out of WA, Martin Turner didn’t”t play professionally for a very long time and showed certainly no interest in his WA legacy.
Andy and his family, however, ploughed on. That is where he derives his “right” to the name WA from. There is a sense of bitterness about him.
Ted, Laurie and Steve all love Martin (and dislike the Andy Powell operations of WA), but it is perhaps telling that not one of them has joined Martin for an “alternative WA” – not having had his luck with a second marriage, I think it is fair to say that they perhaps do not wish to rely on his commercial nous (or absence thereof!) for a living.
July 4th, 2025 at 17:22Thanks Uwe for that Wishbone Ash information. I have noticed a few of those stories a little over the years. A similar story to a few other bands from the 1970’s in many ways. Regarding the ‘American’ Ash, one of the reasons I really enjoyed the early 70’s Ash was because they did sound very English. They were being themselves so to speak. The change that I am listening to is not to my liking as it wasn’t back at the time. Sure there are still some nice songs and the odd instrumental. Markets forces again, at least it was most of the original members for a little while until a ‘reunion’ of sorts. The first Laurie Wisefield album ‘Theres The Rub’ still sounded English to me, (Lady Jay’ and Persephone) to mention a couple. Plus that FUBB instrumental still had that classic Ash vibe going on even though it was recorded in the USA with a producer from over there. The exquisite guitar melodies, Martin’s lovely vocals and bass playing and Steve Upton’s drumming. I bought their next album, ‘Locked In’ and was dismayed in a sense. It sounds like Upton did a Carl Palmer in the 1980’s thing. Straightened everything up, less ‘jazzy’ if you know what I mean. Not to worry as I continue to listen online to the later 70’s Ash out of curiosity. When certain British bands became ‘Americanised’ it can leave me out in the cold. Yes with Trevor Rabin (even though Rabin wasn’t a USA person at that time). Record companies and their influence eh? Everything changes for a reason, it wasn’t all bad, at least initially for a little while with a few artists. Thankfully we have the prime 70’s era music set in stone. Cheers.
July 5th, 2025 at 00:05@20, yes the acrimony vs AP and the rest of the ex-WA members is lamentable.
The WA-branded band might have recaptured some of its past glory and B-level standing in the marketplace had AP kept MT on board. Likely Andy calculated that a bigger slice of a cottage industry-sized pie offers him the greatest return on his efforts.
But without Martin the old magic is missing from its sound.
At least the original MKI and II lineups left a substantial legacy. All ten of their albums from 1970 -80 have at least SOME good songs and playing. Would consider some – the debut, “Argus”, “There’s The Rub” and “New England” – solid all the way through. Others – “Four” and “Front Page News” – not far behind.
All the guitarists had their strong points – Ted very expressive and lyrical, Andy creative and daring. And as you point out, Laurie, with his country and prog-spanning background, had the most chops of any of them. (By the time of their 1987-91 reunion, Ted’s stylistic range and improvisational ability had grown by leaps and bounds. One of the highlights of an otherwise underwhelming chapter in the band’s history.)
Agree that Martin’s bass playing was optimal for the band. Exciting and unique, one of the defining aspects of the sound. Supposedly he would think up lines contrapuntally to the vocal and guitar melodies, paying scant attention to the chord changes. Remarkable how well he could play those lines, sometimes in drop-D tuning, and sing at the same time.
MT was also by far the best singer in the band, which makes on wonder if they might have fared better with him as lead vocalist on all their records. Exploring the band’s catalogue for the first time, I remember being perplexed by how many different voices one had to get used to.
Ted’s voice had a casual, unpretentious charm. Andy’s was OK on harmonies, but sounded neither strong nor pleasant when he took the lead, eg. “Bad Weather Blues” or “Where Were You Tomorrow”. Laurie made a very poor start – consider the songs he sang on “Locked In”! – but grew more tuneful over the years.
Glad to read that Steve Upton is enjoying a comfortable retirement. Seem to recall reading that he had a bad back which prevented him from playing drums? A common problem amongst percussionists – John Weathers and Phil Collins afflicted as well.
July 5th, 2025 at 02:05@ 22- I do remember reading somewhere years ago that Steve Upton retired after Wishbone Ash. Same with Simon King from Hawkwind, although that may not have been because of a bad back. It looks like they both simply had had enough of the rock ‘n roll circus when they decided to retire. In regard to Phil Collins, I have read that a spinal injury in 2007 brought on his ongoing debilitating back issue. He apparently commenced playing drums at a very young age, five years old. So back posture and decades of drumming and even sitting at a piano could be an ongoing issue for him. One of rock musics greatest drummers is Phil Collins. A touch of the ‘big band jazz’ too, like a few others we are familiar with. Phil has another advantage over most drummers and that is being a rather good vocalist and songwriter too. Bless him as his health is not good from what we hear. I agree with the Martin Turner sentiments, a wonderful vocalist he is and I did think the same at times, why do the others even bother, he he he. Not to mention his bass playing, he stands out indeed and when bass guitarists plays that melodically and exceptionally (including Chris Squire in this), it is a rather important staple to the bands creativity and development and style. Take that away and the horse has definitely left the cart behind. Cheers.
July 6th, 2025 at 02:05Derek Lawrence had WA signed to an American record company and harmony guitar playing was always a big thing in the US – think of all the Southern Rock bands and AOR stalwarts like Boston. So there was always an American pull on that English folk influence too. A German music mag once wrote that WA found appeal with both hard rock fans due to the guitar focus of their music and people who perhaps preferred CSN&Y due to their vocal harmonies and West Coast groove.
But Laurie came from Home and from having played with Al Stewart on American tours, so he made the US influence more prominent.
The Martin Turner era of the band – including the 90s reunion – is nothing to be ashamed of, even the weakish Locked In with its funk and RnB influence (and a teenage Whitney Houston with braces & pigtails singing backing vocals with her mom!) has grown on me considerably ever since a proper remaster of it was released when WA did an encompassing boxed set of their MCA albums some years back.
I never minded that there were different lead singers with WA, it’s a trait they share with Status Quo where you have Francis Rossi’s nasal pop/folk voice on tracks like Caroline, Wild Side of Life, Rocking All Over The World or Marguerita Time
https://youtu.be/82_jIzWHPUY ,
Rick Parfitt’s tenor rasp on tracks like Mystery Song, Whatever You Want and Living On An Island
https://youtu.be/lAyk2VnueZY ,
or Alan Lancaster’s bellow on the rockier pieces:
https://youtu.be/l46jFNOLa4I
Like with The Beatles where there were songs sung by Paul or John or George or Ringo, I always took that as a strength (I liked Mk III’s and IV’s dual or alternating lead vocals too), but I’m aware that among the many theories that abound why Quo never cracked America, the “varying lead vocals”-problem ranks as a prominent one. Many people prefer just one immediately identifiable lead singer in a band.
July 6th, 2025 at 07:15@ 24- indeed I was joking about the Wishbone Ash vocalists, it is just that I prefer Martin’s vocal compared to the others. I much prefer different singers too and The Beatles while mostly Lennon and McCartney, the other two did their bit too and have some rather good songs. Many of my favourite bands have different singers. The Moody Blues, early Pink Floyd, Queen, certain Yes music and the Eagles, just to name a few not mentioned as yet in these comments. It makes it much more diverse in melody, song composition and the lyrics. One vocalist becomes too much of the same old same old too quickly for me. A good example is later Pink Floyd. They became more and more Roger Waters towards the end of his tenure in the band and then all David Gilmour with the post Waters Floyd. We notice it quickly, the lack of diversity that once was there, which was one of their strengths as a band. Cheers.
July 6th, 2025 at 11:43@24 – one key difference between Quo and WA is that Quo’s non-Francis singers were just as strong as he was.
Would rank Rick’s “Little Lady” or Alan’s “Is There A Better Way”, for example, on par with Francis-sung hits like “Down Down” or “Paper Plane”.
Having different singers may well have impeded Quo’s success in America. Others think that Francis’ voice was just too English-sounding for the market, as well as being oddly “soft” relative to how hard-rocking a lot of the music was.
Foghat sold millions in the USA with their not entirely dissimilar sound… And a singer, Lonesome Dave, who could really belt.
Glad you enjoyed the WA MKI reunion era! Maybe I’m a philistine, finding only one of the three records they made during that time impressive.
An all-instrumental WA LP was a great idea! But the producer’s decision to replace drummer Steve Upton with a drum machine on most songs was, for me, “Nouveau Calls'” fatal flaw. Rendering it mechanical-sounding and lifeless.
“Here To Hear” was the highpoint of that era, to be sure. The only true reunion album, with all four guys appearing on all tracks. Ted Turner shining as guitarist and songwriter, now in possession of a strong singing voice. Martin’s material also very good as usual. Andy almost absent from songwriting credits. Quite a good record in its way, though sounding more like the Police or Cutting Crew or the Fixx than classic 70s WA.
Found the material on “Strange Affair” less impressive. Heavily dominated by Andy’s more workmanlike, less inspired songs and vocals. Martin getting few vocal leads and only one composition. Ted turning in a few numbers such as “Rollin'” which, though catchy, are stamped with an early-90s expiry date, due to the production. A somewhat bland record which presaged the imminent end of the reunion. A lot of the excitement was gone, as was Steve, with Martin about to get the boot a few months later.
July 7th, 2025 at 20:58I don’t know what to think of that Wishbone Ash album Nouveau Calls, as I currently listen to it online. I will say it was the 1980’s, with those percussion sounds and the over all recording and production. Something different at least, another way to look at it. And also a guitarists album more than anything else. Not to worry, interesting to hear ‘new’ Ash music. Their debut album is a cracking first up album, not many artists start with a statement like that, King Crimson did that as well. I will continue to listen to later 70’s and into the 80’s Wishbone Ash with the core band members involved. Cheers.
July 8th, 2025 at 06:05Skippy, I’m actually with you: That WA Mk I reunion phase was uneven, I was just happy to have Martin back, however, letting Steve go and replacing a swinging drummer like him with a drum machine was criminal, what were they thinking?!
There was never a time even in the 80s and 90s where I preferred drum machines over the real thing. Lots of bands made that mistake, Jethro Tull (Under Wraps), Judas Priest (Ram It Down) or Gary Moore (Wild Frontier) and that static drumming on all these records sounded as horrible to me back then as it does today. It’s ok if someone like Kylie Minogue does a dance pop single with a drum machine for you to move your butt around, but listening to a whole album of it? Fürch-ter-lich!
I think you hit the nail on the head with Francis Rossi’s folkie-pop voice being a confounding discrepancy to Quo’s harder music on US radio. He sounded très English too, but then so did Ray Davies (The Kinks’ strongest market in the 70s were the US), Al Stewart or Steve Marriott (Humble Pie were basically a US-only phenomenon) and Ian Hunter (whose solo career was and is similarly dependent on the US market). OTOH, the Yanks never got Noddy Holder who could certainly shout and scream as well as sound gritty with the best of them. And Steve Harley was obviously too much of a linguistic cockney rebel for them!
Also, no one ever seemed to mind in the US that the appropriately named Three Dog Night had three (all individually strong) different lead vocalists varying from hit single to hit single
https://youtu.be/DTCyjYjsVc8
https://youtu.be/M9uoq9gfeL0
https://youtu.be/yJgA7wt2wgg
I really loved Three Dog Night for their vocal prowess and their skill of picking other people’s songs (from often yet undiscovered songwriters) and arranging them into their own. Of course, the lack of own material cost them recognition as a “serious band” to this day, which I think highly unfair. They were so much a part of the US charts in the first half of the 70s they should long have been commemorated in the RRHoF. Also live performers that did not need to fear playing with much harder rocking acts on the same bill, so infectious was their music. Their former popularity is today pretty much forgotten.
July 8th, 2025 at 16:22@28 -Uwe at least we will soon have the re-tooled “Under Wraps” with real drums!
Too bad more artistes don’t likewise rehabilitate their gimmicky 80s recordings. Bowie was one of few others who did, approving the replacement of the fake drums on “Never Let Me Down” with real ones towards the end of his life.
Wish Kevin Ayers’ estate would revisit his 1980s albums and scrub the programmed drums – apparently something he was desirous of doing, during his later years.
Funny you mention Kylie. Am generally not a fan of live albums, unless they contain unique songs or vastly different arrangements to the studio originals. But hearing her sing with a real drummer always seemed like reason enough to buy hers.
@27 – MacGregor yes that WA debut was exciting! From the moment that wild drumming explodes out of the speakers at the start of the first song, it grabs the listener’s attention right away. On first listen, had my fingers crossed that the songs would be good… Which they were…
By the end of the record they had a new a fan. Knocked out by everyone’s playing, not only the drummer’s.
July 9th, 2025 at 04:17@ 29 – Skippy, have you heard something I have not, regarding Jethro Tull and the Under Wraps album. I do remember Anderson saying a few years ago that he gave that some serious thought. It rankles him (and it should too) that he did that appalling drum machine thing with a Tull album. However, the last I read (a couple of years ago) was that he canned the idea as not really necessary at this late point in time. I have his Walk Into Light solo album, 1983 and there is better song quality on that than Under Wraps to my ears. It of course has a drum machine, (where he got the idea from for the Tull album) and it sounds corny too, but it is a solo album, so we cut him some slack. But to do that to a Tull album. GRRRRRRRR. Many Tull aficionados loathe that. Has Anderson changed his mind, hopefully. Regarding Wishbone Ash, yes their debut is a very close favourite of mine. There’s The Rub was the first Ash album I ever heard, in the mid 70’s. My older brother had it, so it is a favourite for many reasons. However their debut is a very strong album, I listened to it yesterday for the first time in a while. It still does the trick. Steve Upton’s drumming on those early albums is grand. That cover of Vas Dis on Pilgrimage, say no more. All of the musicians are incredibly melodic players and those compositions, stellar. Brother Jack McDuff and his band with Vas Dis, link below. Cheers.
Jack McDuff – organ
Red Holloway – tenor saxophone
George Benson – guitar
Joe Dukes – drums
Cover Disc:
Harold Vick – saxophon and flute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9tGA0o6Bi0
July 9th, 2025 at 09:57@30 – MacGregor – this was the interview where Ian A. mentioned the renovations to “Under Wraps”, segment starting around 7:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbkU8wwiswQ&t=1605s
Bad as Tull with a drum machine was, there were other acts whose records were even more completely destroyed by fake drums. Perhaps the most extreme example being Nazareth, where programmed percussion rendered every album from “Cinema” to “Move Me” unlistenable.
Was very happy that Darrell Sweet got to play on “Boogaloo”, just before his untimely death. The live drumming was one of many things that made that record better than any Naz LP in more than a decade.
I blame ZZ Top – think the massive success of “Eliminator” started the trend towards drum machines in rock music. Which even spread to country records not long after.
“Vas Dis” is fun tune no matter who plays it! Read somewhere that it was part of WA’s live act which they had no plan to record… But that when they played it as a warm-up number in the studio, Derek Lawrence rolled tape and said they should put it on the record. Fun story, if true.
“Pilgrimage” is a strange album, with so many instrumentals and more singing from Andy and Ted than Martin. Nonetheless MT’s wordless vocal on “Vas Dis” makes it clear who was the best singer in the band.
July 9th, 2025 at 22:30